Are Humans Really At the Top of the Food Chain? Or Something Else?
By Michael Ashley
For over 30 years, Joel Schafer has studied shamanic traditions, offering unique training in dreaming arts, energy redeployment, and earth connection. Through online courses, mentoring, and workshops, Joel guides individuals in reclaiming energy, exploring abstract purpose, and expanding awareness via shamanic movements, breathwork, and shadow reflection. His teachings emphasize reconnecting with the earth's sentience and rediscovering the youthful curiosity and affection we bring into this realm. Joel’s approach inspires deep gratitude and transformation through powerful tools and rituals.
You can watch the full interview on YouTube.
MA: Hey everybody. I'm very honored to have Joel Schaefer on my show today. Joel, could you tell us briefly a little bit about who you are?
JS: Thanks for having me. I’ve been training with shamans since I was 16, which led to unique experiences and challenges. I sought different teachers to help me understand what was happening and met powerful individuals—though some turned out to be shadowy and cult-like. At 17, I left society, living in the mountains with a group of people, unbound from societal norms. I practiced techniques from Carlos Castaneda’s books, exploring dreaming as more than imagination but an interactive, magical experience. My wife and I take these Toltec practices seriously, spending time in nature and teaching workshops, mentorships, and online courses.
MA: It’s an honor to have you here today. For listeners unfamiliar with Carlos Castaneda, can you explain what the flyers are?
JS: Sure. The Toltecs describe the flyers as a force higher on the food chain than humans, one that has outmaneuvered us by lending us its mind. Essentially, what we think of as our thoughts aren’t entirely ours. We do have a natural mind, but there’s also this busy, incessant mind that’s incredibly hard to silence. The goal of shamans is to silence this noise so they can see beyond the veil, which requires turning off that constant mental chatter. The flyers are like a program or force manipulating and observing us, feeding off human fear and emotion. They may even be responsible for influencing how civilizations were built and possibly shaping the framework of religions to limit people by fostering rigid beliefs.
Toltecs believe this force feeds on our toroidal energy fields—these immense fields of light that surround and protect us. Most people have never experienced what it’s like to have those fields fully intact and undisturbed. By insulating their energy and silencing their minds, Toltecs can eventually perceive these beings and stop feeding them, which allows them to move consciously in dreams and explore other layers of existence. The flyers are like gatekeepers in this multidimensional reality. Whether they’re ancient AI, beings from another realm, or something else entirely, no one knows for sure, but their influence is profound.
MA: When I first read The Active Side of Infinity, the way these entities were described genuinely scared me. What you're saying reminds me of ideas like the Wetiko mind virus, demons and devils in religion, or even the reptilian concept David Icke discusses. I heard you mention on another podcast that these beings exist alongside us but in different planes, within a limited light spectrum. Are these entities reptilian or something else? Could you explain this further?
JS: Sure. The Toltecs sometimes call them mud shadows, massive beings you can’t see unless you stop your thoughts completely, and even then, witnessing them recklessly could be dangerous. Whether they're reptilian, I can’t confirm. I rely mostly on the Castaneda material because of its precision and impeccable nature. These writings don’t align with some broader concepts like outer space or planets; instead, they describe interdimensional beings, and I believe the world operates differently than what we’re told.
The flyers aren’t the only predators out there; as Carlos described, even after overcoming them, another type of being lies in wait, ready to take control. Since time is an illusion for them, they’re patient. Humans, with our short lifespans, emit an incredible light—more than these long-lived beings who dole out their energy sparingly. This makes us very attractive, almost like fruit on a tree to be harvested. Witnessing them would be extremely disturbing, so it's best to approach these ideas gradually and carefully.
MA: Robert Monroe uses the term "loosh," and I want to make sure I understand what you're saying. It’s like a psychosphere, where there’s a psychic food chain. Just as we eat fruits, vegetables, or meat, these entities exist above us, harvesting our energy—our fear and pain, for example. Is that accurate?
JS: Yeah, or even our excitement, our relationships, sexual connections, and romance. It’s really unconscious unless you become aware of what’s happening. These entities feed off us when we’re fighting or even during intimate moments—unless you know what you’re doing. Joy is powerful, but there are different versions of excitement that attract these creatures. There are all kinds of inorganic beings, and the flyers aren’t the only ones.
MA: You mentioned inorganic beings beyond the flyers. Can you explain how entities like the Yeti or dream figures interact with us?
JS: The Yeti, for example, are magical creatures that can walk in other worlds but also materialize here. They can disappear, just like a shaman might, because they have access to other layers of existence. In the wilderness, you wouldn’t experience them physically—you’d sense them through sound and presence.
Shamans prepare themselves to handle these situations. Not all these entities are negative. When we dream, we’re interacting with inorganic beings. You might dream of your girlfriend, but if you look closely, you’d notice something’s off—like her turning into your uncle mid-dream. You don’t catch the shift, and the dream changes. These beings are trying to teach us to recognize when we’re dreaming, to pull us into their world. Toltecs engage with them in dreams to learn how to dream consciously. It’s tricky because the same beings influencing us hold the key to breaking free, but you have to interact with them to learn.
MA: According to Toltec cosmology, if we are indeed something else—what we were before the flyers and other entities came here—what was that like? What was the world like before their arrival?
JS: Yeah. So, we are travelers capable of going into worlds upon worlds upon worlds. As the Toltecs say, this is a vision—a dream like Maya—but there are actually probably an infinite number of other worlds we’re meant to go to. The flyers stopped us from traveling and caught us in an eddy, like when a river forms a whirlpool, trapping the water so it can’t keep flowing. We’ve become stuck, thinking this is all there is, but it’s just a tiny fraction of what’s available to us. Subconsciously, some part of us knows something is wrong, and that awareness is causing us to self-destruct. We’re in a serious predicament, but I believe things will contract enough that an expansion will follow. People will wake up, reclaim their dreaming attention, and begin to see more.
MA: You mentioned that we’ve lost something profound. What were we capable of before, and how do the Toltecs approach recovering those abilities?
JS: We used to be very powerful beings. We could do all kinds of things—telepathy, remote viewing, bilocation—abilities people now think of as science fiction. But they’re not fiction at all. We were incredibly connected to the earth, wild, and nomadic. Fiction writers, whether they know it or not, often act as gatekeepers, influenced by the flyers who manipulate humanity. You think you’ve invented something, but it’s often just been given to you. We’re being run by forces we barely understand, and it’s much more intense than we realize.
But there’s hope. There’s a magical feature in our luminous cocoon called the assemblage point, usually located in the back left corner of the toroidal field. If we could move it—outside the field or below it—we could access other visions, other worlds. Toltecs work to loosen their apprentices’ assemblage point, enabling it to move again. That movement is the mechanism for traveling to other worlds—not through outer space, but by shifting the assemblage point itself.
MA: In The Seth Material, Jane Roberts talks about an oversoul, describing it as a tree where each life or incarnation is like a leaf. When I hear you speak, it sounds like we were once non-physical beings—a spirit or oversoul—but now we’re trapped in this three-dimensional reality. Many people, especially those who don’t believe in spirituality, are stuck in the physical and mundane, while entities like the flyers harvest our life force, or loosh. Is this reality a kind of soul trap? And is the purpose of all this, as the Toltecs suggest, to wake up within the dream and reclaim our awareness?
JS: Totally, yeah, that’s a good way of saying it. But I don’t think it’s a soul trap. Don Juan said that if we don’t remember the secret of the assemblage point, we’ll perish. These forces will feed off us to the point of self-destruction, but they also need us alive because we’re their food source.
It’s a paradox—they keep us alive but destroy us at the same time. I think it’s more like a perfect obstacle course for us to discover our power. Most of humanity serves as a buffer, acting as a food source so those who are ready to awaken can pursue this path without too much interference. It’s a process that happens in stages, and we’re in a time when more people are waking up to this than ever before. By reclaiming their attention, they can shift the assemblage point in magical ways, revealing the full extent of our potential. You could call it a soul trap, but that adds an unnecessary negative connotation to something that’s just extremely complex and part of a greater design.
MA: If someone masters the shamanic abilities you described—controlling their dreams, lucid dreaming, becoming like a Don Juan—what could they expect to encounter beyond this place? What’s out there?
JS: There are worlds upon worlds—beautiful, magical, and sometimes dangerous. Some aren’t meant for humanity. Don Juan once aged 10 years in a second in one world, and his teacher spent 10 years in another but was gone for only a second here. It’s like Inception without drugs—though the Toltecs used power plants like peyote to uncover what’s really happening. Don Juan took Carlos to another world, warning him not to stare at beings there, as they’d notice him. Carlos couldn’t resist, and the beings turned on him, forcing Don Juan to pull him out.
Other worlds have different beings and focuses, but the flyers manipulate those worlds too. Toltecs, or Star Walkers, explore these realms, recognizing stars, the sun, the moon, and even Earth as conscious beings. By communicating with the Earth or sun through telepathy, you can learn truths beyond books. If you silence yourself and master practices like sungazing, the Earth can reveal her other layers and boost you into new worlds.
MA: For those unfamiliar with Carlos Castaneda and Don Juan, could you explain who they were and their relationship?
JS: Carlos Castaneda was an anthropology student at UCLA who wanted to study peyote. His journey led him to Don Juan, an eccentric old man whose intense gaze deeply unsettled him. After seeking him out again, Don Juan tested Carlos and eventually made him an apprentice—not just to learn about peyote but to access deeper shamanic knowledge.
Don Juan belonged to a lineage of shamans with knowledge passed down over thousands of years. Carlos, though skeptical and dense due to his upbringing, was uniquely suited to inherit these teachings. Don Juan used peyote and other power plants to open Carlos’s perception, a method he didn’t use with other apprentices. Ultimately, the lineage was meant to end, so Carlos shared this knowledge through his books.
MA: You’ve mentioned impeccability in connection with Don Juan. How would you describe it, and how is it different from discipline?
JS: Discipline is fear-based—doing things out of concern for consequences, like worrying about your body. Impeccability is different. It’s about caring for yourself because you love your existence. Discipline is needed at first, but impeccability comes from listening to your energy body instead of physical desires.
Being impeccable means aligning with your energy body, breaking free from fixations on food, sleep, or material needs. As you do, life flows—doors open, and Spirit guides you. Impeccability is listening to Spirit rather than trying to control your life. Carlos spent much of his apprenticeship understanding this, learning that impeccability is about honoring what Spirit shows you rather than focusing on physical concerns.
MA: Are you suggesting that by silencing the incessant voice influenced by the flyers and returning to stillness, a kind of magicalness opens in our lives?
JS: Yeah, it’s so simple that it’s often overlooked. When shamans are asked for their secret, they say, “I’ve learned to stay silent.” If you stay silent long enough, this physical, real-looking world begins to disappear, revealing another world behind it—and it’s terrifying.
MA: Let’s talk about the terrifying—what do you mean by that?
JS: It’s just so uncomfortably intense, beautifully terrifying—a world of terror and beauty. The beauty balances the terror, but it doesn’t mean you have to be afraid. Fear is the first enemy of man, and once you get past it, the road opens.
The terror comes from realizing that everything you’ve been told—by your parents, teachers, and society—is hypnosis. Don Juan called them Black Magicians, unknowingly passing on a deceptive lie inherited from their parents. It’s really the flyers behind it all. I don’t blame my parents for their unawareness. In fact, I’m honored to be the black sheep of my family.
MA: You mentioned dreams and entities, and it made me think about how we’re in the age of AI, with deep fakes creating endless projections and images. Could there be a connection between this AI age and your description of these entities as an ancient AI?
JS: Yeah, I think so. David Icke says AI is being designed so these entities can possess it, grounding them into a physical form. Right now, they exist in the realm of energy, but AI could bring them into this world. We’re in a unique predicament, and things might not get easier. Simplicity is key—silence is essential.
Silence isn’t just meditation; it’s where you become an activated dreamer, able to enter other worlds and heal. I’ve spent so much time in silence that it’s helped me heal emotions and feelings I didn’t know were there. Shamans say sadness is the most prevalent force—a deep longing, a sense of disconnection. We are extensions of the dark sea of awareness, what Toltecs call eternity. It’s a force we encounter when dreaming or at death, though most are recycled into another life. Toltecs aim to merge with eternity without being recycled, to become one with all things. It’s magical but not easy to grasp.
MA: Many believe there’s a cabal or group of powerful families controlling institutions like the World Economic Forum, military, and government, often tied to dark rituals. In your view, are there individuals on this plane who are aware of dark forces, like the flyers, and cultivating their power for physical dominance?
JS: Yeah, the world is run by sorcerers possessed by entities. They willingly invite these entities through rituals, allowing themselves to be possessed. Secret societies are aware of this, but most members are corrupted at a young age—otherwise, they wouldn’t be involved. These family bloodlines, especially European sorcerers, are extremely powerful. They came to the US, conquered the sorcerers here, and now control everything through possession by various entities.
There are two types of power: power in this life and power in the afterlife. Toltecs seek power in the afterlife, but these sorcerers focus on power in this life and are willing to do anything to get it. Even the Toltecs were once lost in power; the old sorcerers controlled people to gain more power. That’s what we’re dealing with now—European sorcerers using control for physical dominance.
MA: When musicians say, “I sold my soul to the devil,” it reminds me of what you mentioned—people traumatized at a young age who believe that through rituals, they can gain tremendous power in this life, rising to authority. Is that correct? And how does music play into this?
JS: Yeah, that’s correct. Music is a very powerful healing tool, but it’s been misused against us. The frequency it’s played at and other aspects have been manipulated. Since these puppeteers run humanity, they use things like Hollywood and music to control us. For example, the Grateful Dead was designed to ensnare people in that world for years. The CIA was involved in creating it because it’s easier to control people this way. I love the Dead, though—it’s a double-edged sword. It’s like Twitter: a trap, but also a place to learn, connect, and have conversations, even though it’s ultimately designed to control us.
MA: Are you saying that the Grateful Dead, through figures like the Merry Pranksters, Ken Kesey, and the acid tests, were intentionally created to ensnare people?
JS: Yeah, exactly. Robert Hunter was tasked with writing lyrics based on prompts they gave him, tied to what they wanted. He was involved in government systems, but I think many of them, like him, were just useful idiots—they didn’t fully realize what was happening. Bands don’t stay that big or keep releasing albums unless they’re going along with the system.
This applies to authors too—there’s gatekeeping. It’s starting to shift now, with people waking up and looking for authenticity. But manipulation is still prevalent, not just from individuals but from puppeteers running these systems through people.
MA: This reminds me of the Tavistock Institute, which worked to control people through culture. I read that bands like The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, and The Doors were created to lower vibration frequencies, focusing on materialism, narcissism, and hedonism. Would you say that’s accurate?
JS: Yeah, many of those influential bands were controlled and manipulated to create that dynamic. Don Juan once took Carlos to a world where people basked in light, surrounded by candles, feeling God’s presence. Carlos was so moved he fell to his knees, but Don Juan slapped him, saying, “This is just another trap.” Everything is a trap until you can see it.
I still enjoy t lots of music and enjoy controlled bands because some of the best music comes from them. But MK Ultra is very real, and people don’t realize how deeply they’re being used. They do things like honeycombing—using LSD to create compartments in the mind for manipulation, even through dreams. Sorcerers can plant inception during dream time, making people think lyrics or ideas are theirs when they’re not.
MA: Speaking of predictive programming, we have movies like Inception that allow us to discuss these ideas. For those who don’t know, what is MK Ultra?
JS: MK Ultra was proven in court in the 1970s to be real. The CIA was putting humanity under hypnosis by hypnotizing leaders in music, movies, or government, who would then hypnotize others, knowingly or unknowingly. It’s hard to explain—I don’t claim to fully understand it—but this was revealed, and the CIA claimed they would stop.
Instead, they went into hyper mode. That whole court case was likely an MK Ultra program itself, meant to reveal to humanity, “Hey, you’re being manipulated,” just to see how people would respond. And there was no response.
MA: You’ve mentioned the Toltecs several times. For those unfamiliar, who are the Toltecs, and how did you get involved with this knowledge?
JS: Toltec can mean different things. For some, it refers to a bloodline from ancient Mexico, but for Carlos Castaneda and Don Juan, a Toltec is someone who has learned the art of dreaming. It’s not about ancestry but a rite of passage. The dreaming arts of the Toltecs are unique and originate from ancient Mexico, where shamans were incredibly powerful—probably the most powerful beings on Earth thousands of years ago.
However, the Toltec lineage has a dark past. The old seers misused their power and faced destruction. The arrival of European sorcerers and conquistadors, who sought to destroy Toltec knowledge, was almost karmic, forcing the Toltecs to adapt in extraordinary ways to preserve their wisdom.
I came across Toltec teachings through Castaneda’s work and later met Carol Tiggs, the Nawal woman in his material. She is an otherworldly presence, and being around her makes you realize how luminous energy is passed to apprentices—not just through words but through a transmission of energy. This connection is so deep that apprentices can start to remember their teacher’s memories and take on their luminous energy, forming a profound bond of power and knowledge.
MA: When you mention the conquistadors and ancient Mexico, it makes me wonder how much of history has been misrepresented. If what you’re saying is true, it seems our understanding of history—and even daily life—is completely wrong. What are your thoughts?
JS: Ancient technology is just another version of magic. We used to have civilizations with incredible technology and awareness, but the flyers intervened, and much of this has been systematically hidden. People are starting to see that what we’ve been told doesn’t make sense. The Toltecs spoke of giants, massive beings, and a vapor canopy that allowed enormous growth. Don Juan often challenged Carlos, dismissing what he learned in college and saying history has been inverted to suppress awakening.
Don Juan believed no truths are allowed because one truth leads to all truths. Ancient civilizations, especially, have been hidden. We’re made to believe in constructs like the medieval ages, but much of it is likely fabricated. This inversion disconnects us from our true origins and potential.
MA: One final question: you mentioned controlling your dreams earlier. What does it look like to become a master of your dreams?
JS: There are dreaming gates, and the first step is realizing you’re in a dream. You might look at your hands and notice how everything shifts and moves. Once aware, you can consciously go to sleep in the dream, lying on your left side to pass through a dreaming gate into a deeper layer. Repeating this process takes you further. Movies like Inception and The Matrix were inspired by Castaneda material, though they simplified it for broader audiences.
Toltecs say the third gate of dreaming feels more real than this world. When I wake up there, it’s so vivid and intense that I often panic and come out of it. The challenge is learning to handle that intensity and stay calm, which is very difficult but essential to mastering deeper layers of dreaming.
MA: When you say intense, how do you mean?
JS: It’s just so amazing—so much joy, connection, and aliveness—that it becomes uncomfortable. It’s so exhilarating it shocks you, or at least it does me. It’s just too much energy moving through you, and we’re not used to that. You have to become empty enough to handle it. If you have emotional blocks or wounds, it’s really difficult. Joy can take you out just as much as pain.
MA: It’s been fascinating speaking with you. I’d love to have you back. Real quick—do you have a course or resources where people can follow your work and learn more about what you’ve shared today?
JS: Yes, I’ve just launched a course called Resilience, available at joelschaefer.com. I also have a YouTube channel called Perceiver and an Instagram at @joel.schaefer. I offer free consults and in-person courses in Montana—like one on April 5th and 6th with mountain excursions on the 7th and 8th—and online classes on Sundays at noon and Tuesdays at 6 PM Mountain Time.
There’s a great community involved, including experienced practitioners who honor me by continuing to join my trainings. I also do mentoring sessions on a sliding scale, focusing on emotional healing and shamanic movements. My courses include recapitulation, a Toltec breath practice to review your life, reclaim energy from the past, and release splinters from relationships. The Toltecs believe this process can help avoid a normal death, allowing you to move to the next stage without being consumed by the force that takes awareness at death.
MA: That’s something I wanted to ask you about—recapitulation. We’ll cover it next time. Thank you so much, Joel. This was fascinating. I can’t wait to talk to you again.
JS: Thanks, Michael. Good to be with you. See you next time.
Note: this interview has been lightly edited from the transcript for clarity.